276 replies to this topic

[M Needforspeed]

Using CCM , I measured roughly the grade angle between the entry of the chicane left apex  and the right apex.. I drawed a line joining the two apexes.

1 -   the original Papyrus Monaco track showed quite 0° angle, as the car can take advantage of racing on half of the pavement on the left.

Attached Files

•  Monaco GPL Papyrus 0 degrees angle .JPG   263.62K   351 downloads

Edited by M Needforspeed, May 07 2012 - 03:20 PM.

[M Needforspeed]

2  - the Monacane, Monaco modified chicane by Mark Beckman

   Grade angle between the two apexes are 10°/11° as measured from the two line starting from the entrance apex.

   as seen on the pic, Beckman has completely written off the pavement on the left,  thus restraining room at the entrance of the chicane.He added simply  a perpendicular rail

   But to get such angle, he had to move the second apex to the left, and to get it done, create a new haybale 3 D object.

Attached Files

•  Monacane apex angles 11 degrees .JPG   333.21K   272 downloads

Edited by M Needforspeed, Mar 29 2012 - 04:17 PM.

[M Needforspeed]

Who is right, who is wrong ?

Answer ain 't easy, because not having the exact track data, we can only rely on pics or movies; 1967 GP Monaco chicane pics from the top are rather rare .  

    After finding one that is not perfect, I drawed lines, then measured the grade angle between the two apexes.

Measured grade being 15 °, the result goes more toward Beckmann modifications

   The pic is good to show the real drivers racing line, thks to the engine oil left by Brabham engine. It isn 't strictly a straight line, rather just a little curved line.
But we can doubt a lot about the drivers having to brake here,  only lifting off the throttle to cross over the bumpy place certainly did the trick, as we can watch on the Monaco 67 color movie.

Attached Files

•  VIRAGE AUTO monaco 67 chicane from the sky 15 degrees.jpg   466.56K   462 downloads
•  VIRAGE AUTO monaco 67 chicane from the sky 15 degrees.jpg   465.8K   535 downloads
•  LE SPORT AUTOMOBILE Fraichard Monaco 67 Hulme Bandini Stewart Surtees Gurney Bruce McLaren Clark chicane.jpg   295.7K   360 downloads

Edited by M Needforspeed, Mar 08 2012 - 06:11 PM.

[M Needforspeed]

So it seems not only Mark hasn 't exagerated the tricky thing Monacane chicane is, but it seems the real degree was maybe higher.

  Another improvement in his work was withdrawing the pavement. The pic above shows, there was no pavement at all at this place, but simply Shell adverts bales

  When I measured the 10°/11° degree Monacane chicane, I took into account a disturbing  BUG in Mark version .Cars can goes through the right apex haybale without crashing, AI's as well as player car. If it was a solid haybale, then the degree wld go to 13° .

  Maybe a small part of the haybale should be replaced by transparent polygons ? Just the part on the left side of the D letter

Attached Files

•  Player cutting Monacane.JPG   200.37K   177 downloads
•  pLAYER CAR LINE mONACANE .JPG   209.84K   173 downloads

Edited by M Needforspeed, Mar 09 2012 - 03:25 AM.

[Pete Gaimari]

The real are are sure hugging the right side of the track. We go way out to the left side of the track. Was that at racing speeds?

[M Needforspeed]

Pete Gaimari, on Mar 08 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

The real are are sure hugging the right side of the track. We go way out to the left side of the track. Was that at racing speeds?

Pete,

  When I 'll die, I 'll promise you to send the answer from the skies by asking to Lorenzo Bandini  

That 's why  a real escape road replacing the artificial wall wld have my vote ! here two 1967 escaping actions

Attached Files

•  THROUGH THE LENS NIGEL SNOWDON Clark haybales at Chicane.JPG   1.08MB   251 downloads
•  AUTO ITALIANA Monaco 67 17 formula 3 Kurt Ahrens Caltex racing team brabham through the chicane crash .jpg   647.13K   270 downloads

Edited by M Needforspeed, Mar 09 2012 - 03:16 AM.

[Pete Gaimari]

Bandini had a cruel death. Shouldn't have happened. Even back then.

[davef]

Pete Gaimari, on Mar 08 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

Bandini had a cruel death. Shouldn't have happened. Even back then.

Watching the crash on youtube,it looks like he drifted wide after the exit of the chicane and hits
the harborside haybales,flipping over at the light pole?

[Bob Simpson]

Part of the problem is that the chicane seems to have changed every year.  I wonder if the chicane was made faster and faster until 1967 when Bandini had his fatal crash there.

The organizers reaction was to reduce the number of laps but the chicane was probably made tighter too.

The offset of the road edges is interesting, but another factor in the turn geometry is the distance from apex to apex.  The overhead shot of GPL’s  Monacane shows about 4 car lengths from apex to apex and the overhead shots of live racing shows about 5 car lengths.  Is that in 1967 or earlier? - Ah I see from the picture filename that it was 1967.

Edited by Bob Simpson, Mar 08 2012 - 09:48 PM.

[M Needforspeed]

Bob Simpson, on Mar 08 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

Part of the problem is that the chicane seems to have changed every year.  I wonder if the chicane was made faster and faster until 1967 when Bandini had his fatal crash there.

The organizers reaction was to reduce the number of laps but the chicane was probably made tighter too.

The offset of the road edges is interesting, but another factor in the turn geometry is the distance from apex to apex.  The overhead shot of GPL’s  Monacane shows about 4 car lengths from apex to apex and the overhead shots of live racing shows about 5 car lengths.  Is that in 1967 or earlier? - Ah I see from the picture filename that it was 1967.

  Bob,

Distance between the two apexes is another parameter. Beckman didn 't change it, it seems.But are you sure there is place for 5 cars length between the two apexes ?

With the Monacane chicane,I measured on my screen a distance of 20.7 cm (line) / 4.7 cm ( Ferrari length) =  4.3  Ferrari cars length

On the 67 shot , given the angle size of the shot and the depth of view effect, Hulme car is measuring 3.8 cm, while behind Stewart car is at 2.8 cm .
Distance between apexes 14 cm

14X 2 / 3.8 + 2.8  = 4.24 car length .That 's a rough figure, but I think we are not far from a correct distance evaluation.

But the rough number of cars length evaluation should be lower, by decreasing the 14 cm measurement.
Thing is to be honest, I should add the coef of the depth of view effect.

Edited by M Needforspeed, Mar 29 2012 - 04:18 PM.

[maddog]

I'd agree with Bob, the hay bales could be a car length kinder.  The chicane was a high speed flick.  Mark has moved things closer to reality, but ATM, it still lacks an escape road, and some online friendliness.

Bandini must've clipped an apex, before he reached the corner exit - it's been known to happen, even if online!

[M Needforspeed]

maddog, on Mar 09 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

I'd agree with Bob, the hay bales could be a car length kinder.  The chicane was a high speed flick.  Mark has moved things closer to reality, but ATM, it still lacks an escape road, and some online friendliness.

Bandini must've clipped an apex, before he reached the corner exit - it's been known to happen, even if online!

  Martin,  


  Yes, Monaco NEED AN ESCAPE ROAD . How much is the price to get it done ??

  But if you see  the real drivers racing line, even with "only" a 4.3 car length distance, there is nothing that could stop them from going full throttle.

   That 's rather when they got down before the chicane, that they eased off a bit . So I keep thinking Monacane is quite right , and modifying distance between apexes wld be wrong

   But  there is another real life feature, not in GPL tracks.The water ditch clearly visible that affected certainly cars stiff shocks absorbers, and handling when coming out of the chicane.

Edited by M Needforspeed, Mar 09 2012 - 07:38 AM.

[Cheapracer]

M Needforspeed, on Mar 08 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

So it seems not only Mark

As I remember it I could only warp the 3Do so far before bad clipping came into effect so I went to there and backed it off a little then did what I could to edit the .trk file to match the 3Do.

I also intentionally left a little of the corner of the haybale able to be passed through to simulate "clipping" the edge of the haybale which is realistically possible but also to allow people a bit of leway as to not ruin races - I don't know about now but the GPL collision programming was a bit dodgy back then.

And it's Beckman with one 'n', we lost the other during World War 2 so we didn't sound so German, no kidding.

[Cheapracer]

Bob Simpson, on Mar 08 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

Part of the problem is that the chicane seems to have changed every year.  

Hi Bob.


Very true, If I remember when I was looking at it and it was very different from '65 to '66 and then '67, maybe for the wider cars 3.0 cars to pass easier - or tighter because they were faster? Can't remember which way.

[M Needforspeed]

Bob and Martin,  

Driving on Monacane, that 's a fact that in GPL cars need to ease off more that they should on real life with the same numbers we got. But like on many others places on GPL tracks, it seems it is the desperate lack of longitudinal grip of cars in GPL, when the bodyframe is up on the suspensions that oblige to brake or easy off  the throttle a lot, irrealistically..

  
   Only by taking the correct line here, in F 10 view, it is clear that there is room to place the car and go faster than we really can inside the game. Strange and sad , unless you are an unreal GPL rank  alien.

  
I 'll try to find what gear number they used to cross the chicane

Edited by M Needforspeed, Mar 09 2012 - 11:59 AM.

[Pavel]

I don't think they only eased off a bit before chicane. I read many times about overtakes in Monaco chicane. How it was possible to make a pass at this place if drivers didn't use brakes there? I can belive they didn't use brakes in 1965, but part of '67 grid with 3 lt cars have to brake there.

Edited by Pavel, Mar 09 2012 - 02:25 PM.

[Rudy Dingemans]

Don't forget that Mark's Monacane was only a quick hack, really. It's better (closer to reality) than original GPL but not quite the accurate depiction of Monaco's real chicane, of course. Main thing is it makes it impossible to straightline the chicane full-throttle any more, since IRL they never did that either (and if they did, most of them would've been dead).

With a bit of study it should be fairly easy to have a (Monaco Rocks?) trackmaker produce a better version, I guess. But then also those crazy mid-chicane bumps in the GPL track need to be taken out.

Regards, Rudy
(GPLRank: -40)

Edited by Rudy Dingemans, Mar 09 2012 - 02:40 PM.

[M Needforspeed]

Pavel, on Mar 09 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

I don't think they only eased off a bit before chicane. I read many times about overtakes in Monaco chicane. How it was possible to make a pass at this place if drivers didn't use brakes there? I can belive they didn't use brakes in 1965, but part of '67 grid with 3 lt cars have to brake there.

   Maybe, but the thing is looking at the monaco 67 movie, we see cars cutting the apex and going out quite fast from the chicane. In  the first part of the races, with two drivers in front, one of them surely had to brake to avoid collision .But a car alone on its natural racing line ??

   take into account being quite at full throttle doesn 't mean being at the maximum speed (evident they weren 't ), but rather under acceleration again.They used downshifting and got some engine brake

Edited by M Needforspeed, Mar 09 2012 - 03:30 PM.

[Pete Gaimari]

67 pole was 1.27.6 by Jack, and fast lap by Jimmy was 1.29.5 sure doesn't indicate the chicane was taken fast. We gain way too much time by being able to go full throttle.

Edited by Pete Gaimari, Mar 09 2012 - 03:06 PM.

[davef]

M Needforspeed, on Mar 09 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

Pavel, on Mar 09 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

I don't think they only eased off a bit before chicane. I read many times about overtakes in Monaco chicane. How it was possible to make a pass at this place if drivers didn't use brakes there? I can belive they didn't use brakes in 1965, but part of '67 grid with 3 lt cars have to brake there.

   Maybe, but the thing is looking at the monaco 67 movie, we see cars cutting the apex and going out quite fast from the chicane. In  the first part of the races, with two drivers in front, one of them surely had to brake to avoid collision .But a car alone on its natural racing line ??

   take into account being quite at full throttle doesn 't mean being at the maximum speed (evident they weren 't ), but rather under acceleration again

where can one see the Monaco67 movie you have been talking about?