44 replies to this topic

[brr]

M Needforspeed, on Nov 29 2010 - 03:47 AM, said:

  PLEASE, BRR, I THINK YOU SHOULD PROMOTE YOUR FIRST 60 FPS AI's.Perhaps, the others should be removed from GEM ?? You could keep only a 60 FPS without AIS for those practising off line on long sessions?
   IT WLD HAVE THE ADVANTAGE OF SIMPLYFYING GEM Choice. Many newcomers will wonder why there is a choice between 4 different 60 FPS Patches....
   (only my few cents, here )
    

I never gave permission to put 60fps patches in GEM+, since I prefer that people read instructions and have some idea what they are doing when using the patch.

[Bernd Nowak]

As I need to do a rebuild of the GEM Package I have 2 options now:

a) Put in this 60FPS patch with readme which of course no one reads
or
Remove 60FPS completely from the package as I could see some problems here

It's up to you brr. Either choice is fine by me and thanks for all your efforts as well as those from guys like you Michel  

[brr]

Bernd Nowak, on Nov 29 2010 - 05:14 AM, said:

As I need to do a rebuild of the GEM Package I have 2 options now:

a) Put in this 60FPS patch with readme which of course no one reads
or
Remove 60FPS completely from the package as I could see some problems here

It's up to you brr. Either choice is fine by me and thanks for all your efforts as well as those from guys like you Michel  

Please remove 60fps completely, as I asked before.

[Bernd Nowak]

Will do so brr. But I need some time. But not because of my other GPL projects. Only because my private time is a bit 'short' at this time

[Lee200]

ezechiel47, on Oct 24 2010 - 06:16 AM, said:

You'll find in the attachment a file called "the track.ini for dummies".
Just a few words about how the track.ini works, how to tweak it to your taste or to your favorite mod.

Hi Ez,

Good job on the track.ini for dummies.  It quite amazing that we haven't had a good tutorial before now considering that each track must have one.  Often our track makers, as good as the are, don't pay much attention to the track.ini file settings.

I've been reading it in detail and so far so good.  One point though on the dlong_speed_maximum setting.  I can't remember what effect, if any, it had on the original gpl.exe, but at one point, Nigel added a patch (which is used by all the mods now AFAIK) where this setting adjusts the AI differential ratio so that the AI use the proper gears.  So it's important to set it somewhere near the maximum speed that the fastest AI driver can obtain on the longest straight.

For example with the sports cars, the fastest car at LeMans is the MkIV at about 220 mph so I used 2.73 based on 80.6 meters per tick.  This results in all the AI using the correct shift points.

If you set it too high, this won't affect the AI top speed much, but they will be using too low a differential ratio and will decrease their acceleration.  If you set it too low, this may limit the their top speed as the differential ratio is too high and they bump into the redline.

Lee

Edited by Lee200, Nov 29 2010 - 09:21 AM.

[FloP]

Lee200, on Nov 29 2010 - 09:13 AM, said:

One point though on the dlong_speed_maximum setting.  I can't remember what effect, if any, it had on the original gpl.exe, but at one point, Nigel added a patch (which is used by all the mods now AFAIK) where this setting adjusts the AI differential ratio so that the AI use the proper gears.  So it's important to set it somewhere near the maximum speed that the fastest AI driver can obtain on the longest straight.

Originally, it did not affect the gearing in any way. Instead, the AI drivers just stopped accelerating somewhere along the straights. At least that's what I remember from a couple of experiments many moons ago.

[ezechiel47]

Lee200, on Nov 29 2010 - 09:13 AM, said:

ezechiel47, on Oct 24 2010 - 06:16 AM, said:

You'll find in the attachment a file called "the track.ini for dummies".
Just a few words about how the track.ini works, how to tweak it to your taste or to your favorite mod.

Hi Ez,

Good job on the track.ini for dummies.  It quite amazing that we haven't had a good tutorial before now considering that each track must have one.  Often our track makers, as good as the are, don't pay much attention to the track.ini file settings.

I've been reading it in detail and so far so good.  One point though on the dlong_speed_maximum setting.  I can't remember what effect, if any, it had on the original gpl.exe, but at one point, Nigel added a patch (which is used by all the mods now AFAIK) where this setting adjusts the AI differential ratio so that the AI use the proper gears.  So it's important to set it somewhere near the maximum speed that the fastest AI driver can obtain on the longest straight.

For example with the sports cars, the fastest car at LeMans is the MkIV at about 220 mph so I used 2.73 based on 80.6 meters per tick.  This results in all the AI using the correct shift points.

If you set it too high, this won't affect the AI top speed much, but they will be using too low a differential ratio and will decrease their acceleration.  If you set it too low, this may limit the their top speed as the differential ratio is too high and they bump into the redline.

Lee

Never heard of that before. Very interesting. Going to make a few tests and add that in the definitive tutorial.
Thank you.

Ez

[M Needforspeed]

FloP, on Nov 29 2010 - 12:04 PM, said:

Lee200, on Nov 29 2010 - 09:13 AM, said:

One point though on the dlong_speed_maximum setting.  I can't remember what effect, if any, it had on the original gpl.exe, but at one point, Nigel added a patch (which is used by all the mods now AFAIK) where this setting adjusts the AI differential ratio so that the AI use the proper gears.  So it's important to set it somewhere near the maximum speed that the fastest AI driver can obtain on the longest straight.

Originally, it did not affect the gearing in any way. Instead, the AI drivers just stopped accelerating somewhere along the straights. At least that's what I remember from a couple of experiments many moons ago.

  Lee and Flop,


What you say here is really of interest for the final tweaking of the fastest AI speed. And the best behaviour wld be if the max speed we want to attribute to this AI matches the exact place where all the AIs, him included start to lift off the throttle on the longer straight at any track.

Edited by M Needforspeed, Nov 29 2010 - 02:48 PM.

[Lee200]

Yeah FLop, that sounds right.

The AI are extremely complex as they use so many different .ini file settings as well as stuff buried in the physics.  You can change a setting, say in the track.ini, and that affects things in other files too.

I think, in general, the AI use the race.lp file speed at each point along the track, but modified by the track.ini's dlong_speed_adj_coeff setting as the goal speed.  Then all the other settings act as limits on whether the AI can achieve that goal.  So even if the race.lp file asks for rapid acceleration, the engine torque curve may not be able to generate that much.  The same goes for deceleration where the actual brake setting may not be able to cope.

In turns, the the race.lp speed gets converted into a required lateral G loading, but if the gpl_ai.ini file's nominal_traction_circle is set below that G, the AI will fly off the track.

So everything is all intertwined.

[M Needforspeed]

brr, on Nov 29 2010 - 04:57 AM, said:

M Needforspeed, on Nov 29 2010 - 03:47 AM, said:

  PLEASE, BRR, I THINK YOU SHOULD PROMOTE YOUR FIRST 60 FPS AI's.Perhaps, the others should be removed from GEM ?? You could keep only a 60 FPS without AIS for those practising off line on long sessions?
   IT WLD HAVE THE ADVANTAGE OF SIMPLYFYING GEM Choice. Many newcomers will wonder why there is a choice between 4 different 60 FPS Patches....
   (only my few cents, here )
    

I never gave permission to put 60fps patches in GEM+, since I prefer that people read instructions and have some idea what they are doing when using the patch.

  Sorry to heard this , Brr.

  There are  pros and cons about those patches on the GPL community, but why not a dedicated blog page explaining the 60 fps for newbies ? This blog or web page will be useful to warn about some of the hardware minimum requirement needed to use it with Ais, and other online compatibility tips.Redirecting to SRMZ threads links discussing your patch wld be a second step, only.
  We can regret this, but when going to a web page to dld something, the web user is more   open to read the instructions on the same downloading page than an attached readme with the file.And he wld find immediatly the differences between the  60 fps patches.      
Instructions at least could be included in next Bernd GPLPS Installer.

michel

Edited by M Needforspeed, Nov 29 2010 - 03:52 PM.

[ezechiel47]

M Needforspeed, on Nov 29 2010 - 04:05 AM, said:

ezechiel47, on Nov 28 2010 - 12:38 PM, said:

Merci Michel !
C'est vraiment super qu'avec deux ou trois modifs dans le trackGT.ini on puisse faire rouler correctement les Ai en 60 fps.

Ez

  Merci Ezechiel.les as tu testé ? installe toi en spectateur et dis moi ce que tu en penses ?Je poursuis en Anglais
  
  You ll have to zip between different places at Solitude and at Zandvoort. At Solitude, I identified 9 places were AI passes.Rarely seen before, for a game like GPL !!
  But the best new is that AI aren 't afraid to pass during cornering, and stay two in front from the corner entry to the outing. The paradox is WS cars have a larger wheelbase Finally, AIs feels strongers, more dynamics.  

   For the tracks not included in the season.ini 1967 WSC championship,the Sport Car mod use the track.ini .I know that you know, but only for info ...  

Bonjour Michel,
Oui j'ai observé les Ai en practice sur Solitude avec patch 60fpsaiv1 et ton fichier track.ini. Le résultat est tout à fait satisfaisant. Beaucoup de dépassements, une certaine constance, peu de crashs.
C'est du tout bon. Peut-être pour plus de réalisme faudrait-il ajuster la consommation de carburant...
Thanks
Ez

[M Needforspeed]

ezechiel47, on Nov 29 2010 - 03:01 PM, said:

Bonjour Michel,
Oui j'ai observé les Ai en practice sur Solitude avec patch 60fpsaiv1 et ton fichier track.ini. Le résultat est tout à fait satisfaisant. Beaucoup de dépassements, une certaine constance, peu de crashs.
C'est du tout bon. Peut-être pour plus de réalisme faudrait-il ajuster la consommation de carburant...
Thanks
Ez

Ezechiel,

I try to translate for others, and mainly for Lee

" Yes, I observed the AIs practising at Solitude with your file track.ini and the 60fpsaiV1.The results are satisfying.A lot of passes,
they drove with constant speed, few crashes .For more realism, perhaps it would be good to adjust fuel consumption "

Edited by M Needforspeed, Nov 29 2010 - 03:12 PM.

[Lee200]

M Needforspeed, on Nov 29 2010 - 02:47 PM, said:

What you say here is really of interest for the final tweaking of the fastest AI speed. And the best behaviour wld be if the max speed we want to attribute to this AI matches the exact place where all the AIs, him included start to lift off the throttle on the longer straight at any track.

Yes Michel, you're quite right that we'd like to have the AI perform just like a real world driver and accelerate and decelerate at  the same point and speed.  The major control of this is through the race.lp file for each track.  As long as the race.lp is based on a good human lap, then the AI have a decent starting point.

I've found that if the race.lp file is junk, then there's not much you can do to fix the AI.  This applies not only to their speed, but the racing line they take.

One limitation we have is that several of the major settings, especially in the gpl_ai.ini file, are global; for example the nominal_traction_circle applies to all cars.  In the physics, Nigel made it possible to adjust this for each chassis, but unfortunately once the mod is released, there's no way for experimenters to change it since they don't have the proper tools.

One of the problems we had with the sports car AI was that they accelerated too slowly on race start compared to the player car.  It took a lot of messing around with the settings to get them to accelerate about the same so that the player couldn't pass everyone before the first turn.  It's not perfect now, but much better than before.

Edited by Lee200, Nov 29 2010 - 03:22 PM.

[Lee200]

M Needforspeed, on Nov 29 2010 - 03:08 PM, said:

Ezechiel,

I try to translate for others, and mainly for Lee

" Yes, I observed the AIs practising at Solitude with your file track.ini and the 60fpsaiV1.The results are satisfying.A lot of passes,
they drove with constant speed, few crashes .For more realism, perhaps it would be good to adjust fuel consumption "

Thanks Michel for translating as I'm language challenged.  

Ex, just FYI, the AI fuel consumption is set by the track.ini file fuel loads.  For the sports cars, this is the trackGT.ini file.  The car names must match exactly the directory name for each car.  As the '65 and '69 mods used the original directory names, that's why they can use Brabham, BRM, etc.  The '66 mod and sports cars used different directory names so that's why their track.ini's are different.  It's really important that all the names match because if you make a single error, nothing works I believe.

Setting the fuel loads is a lot of trial and error.  For the sports cars, I tested each of the AI cars at each of the championship tracks and added 5%.  This seems to work fine and the AI should not run out of gas on those tracks.  For all the other 500+ tracks where there is no trackGT.ini file, there is a setting in the physics that adjusts the fuel loads based on the '67 Brabham's fuel load in the track.ini file.  It's probably not perfect, but at least the car gets loaded up with more gas than they would if we were to use the '67 F1 fuel loads.

Since Solitude is not one of the championship tracks, the AI are using the track's Brabham fuel load as a basis.

The AI have several fueling bugs.  They have no fuel capacity limit so you can load them to infinity although the extra weight definitely affects their acceleration.  Also, if they need to refuel, they typically limp back to the pits, refuel, and then rejoin the race.  However, they often miscalculate the number of remaining laps and don't put in enough fuel to finish so they have to refuel again.

I don't know what effect, if any, the 60 fps patch has on AI fuel consumption.

Edited by Lee200, Nov 29 2010 - 03:25 PM.

[M Needforspeed]

Lee200, on Nov 29 2010 - 03:22 PM, said:

M Needforspeed, on Nov 29 2010 - 03:08 PM, said:

Ezechiel,

I try to translate for others, and mainly for Lee

" Yes, I observed the AIs practising at Solitude with your file track.ini and the 60fpsaiV1.The results are satisfying.A lot of passes,
they drove with constant speed, few crashes .For more realism, perhaps it would be good to adjust fuel consumption "

Thanks Michel for translating as I'm language challenged.  

Ex, just FYI, the AI fuel consumption is set by the track.ini file fuel loads.  For the sports cars, this is the trackGT.ini file.  The car names must match exactly the directory name for each car.  As the '65 and '69 mods used the original directory names, that's why they can use Brabham, BRM, etc.  The '66 mod and sports cars used different directory names so that's why their track.ini's are different.  It's really important that all the names match because if you make a single error, nothing works I believe.

Setting the fuel loads is a lot of trial and error.  For the sports cars, I tested each of the AI cars at each of the championship tracks and added 5%.  This seems to work fine and the AI should not run out of gas on those tracks.  For all the other 500+ tracks where there is no trackGT.ini file, there is a setting in the physics that adjusts the fuel loads based on the '67 Brabham's fuel load in the track.ini file.  It's probably not perfect, but at least the car gets loaded up with more gas than they would if we were to use the '67 F1 fuel loads.

Since Solitude is not one of the championship tracks, the AI are using the track's Brabham fuel load as a basis.

The AI have several fueling bugs.  They have no fuel capacity limit so you can load them to infinity although the extra weight definitely affects their acceleration.  Also, if they need to refuel, they typically limp back to the pits, refuel, and then rejoin the race.  However, they often miscalculate the number of remaining laps and don't put in enough fuel to finish so they have to refuel again.

I don't know what effect, if any, the 60 fps patch has on AI fuel consumption.

Lee,

thks for those, too

At the moment, at Solitude, I noticed today ( didn 't yesterday) some bizarre bugs affecting 4/5 of them;Always the same AIs .While going at normal speed, they suddenly brake hard on the long straight line, and then go very slow until they reach the pits.They did do laps to qualify, but that's sudden braking is rather unrealistic !!.Did you noticed that when you prepared the Ais for the championship track ? Is this has a relationship with their fuel consumption ?

Here inside the Solitude track.ini, the data for consumption.As you can see, I am certainly wrong not to have changed some numbers.What do you think ?

brabham_fuel_load_per_lap = 4.22 ; Brabham AI fuel loading in liters per lap
brm_fuel_load_per_lap = 5.22 ; BRM AI fuel loading in liters per lap
coventry_fuel_load_per_lap = 4.76 ; Coventry AI fuel loading in liters per lap
eagle_fuel_load_per_lap = 4.77 ; Eagle AI fuel loading in liters per lap
ferrari_fuel_load_per_lap = 4.78 ; Ferrari AI fuel loading in liters per lap
lotus_fuel_load_per_lap = 4.55 ; Lotus AI fuel loading in liters per lap
murasama_fuel_load_per_lap = 5.20 ; Murasama AI fuel loading in liters per lap
magic_grip = 1.25



So if I understand right, Brabham fuel load 4.22 + 5% should work, isn it ?
  
During a GP race (2 hours )I see they all finish .No fuel starvation at all .

Edited by M Needforspeed, Nov 29 2010 - 04:08 PM.