22 replies to this topic

[Dunderbolt]

From bits and pieces I've found here and there. The Source code for GPL is missing after Papyrus went bankrupt and they really don't know where it is anymore. Is that correct? Has there been discussions on the actions taken to look for it? Is this why basic patches and mods to the game have all these wild constraints?

Edited by Dunderbolt, Apr 17 2020 - 04:20 PM.

[jgf]

Papyrus did not bankrupt, they were purchased by Sierra but left to function as an independent with products marketed by "Sierra/Papyrus".  Around twenty years ago Sierra was purchased by Vivendi, along with rights to all their titles.  Eventually Sierra was disbanded;  Kaemmer and Vivendi did not get along so he left, and Papyrus disappeared.  (Kaemmer got backing and purchased the code for Nascar Racing 2003, which formed the basis for iracing.)  Unless it has since been sold I assume the original GPL code is still held by Vivendi.

However, getting rights to a source code, even an "antiquated" one, can prove an exercise in futility.  After years of a bureaucratic quagmire Night Dive gave up on reissuing No One Lives Forever - https://kotaku.com/t...back-1688358811

Edited by jgf, Apr 17 2020 - 06:04 PM.

[Dunderbolt]

jgf, on Apr 17 2020 - 06:01 PM, said:

Papyrus did not bankrupt, they were purchased by Sierra but left to function as an independent with products marketed by "Sierra/Papyrus".  Around twenty years ago Sierra was purchased by Vivendi, along with rights to all their titles.  Eventually Sierra was disbanded;  Kaemmer and Vivendi did not get along so he left, and Papyrus disappeared.  (Kaemmer got backing and purchased the code for Nascar Racing 2003, which formed the basis for iracing.)  Unless it has since been sold I assume the original GPL code is still held by Vivendi.

However, getting rights to a source code, even an "antiquated" one, can prove an exercise in futility.  After years of a bureaucratic quagmire Night Dive gave up on reissuing No One Lives Forever - https://kotaku.com/t...back-1688358811

So essentially, kind've just got erased from existence and iRacing eventually took place. So... At best, we can ask if Vivendi has the source code to the game. Right?

Edit: Vivendi actually went bankrupt and was bought by Activision Blizzard. So in my mind, there shouldn't be a debacle about who owns it. I'm also using the spreadsheet https://docs.google....t#gid=639918701 that lists Activision Blizzard owning GPL (albeit it lists it as Grand Prix).

I'm gonna ask around on other forums about this and the feasibility of acquiring the source code. It just seems it's been passed on multiple times as companies acquired other companies.

Edited by Dunderbolt, Apr 17 2020 - 08:10 PM.

[jgf]

The Activision Grand Prix is an entirely different product - https://en.wikipedia...rix_(video_game)

The issue isn't so much who owns rights but whether they deem it worthwhile to put lawyers and accountants to work deciding what those rights are worth and how to license them.

[Dunderbolt]

jgf, on Apr 17 2020 - 08:19 PM, said:

The Activision Grand Prix is an entirely different product - https://en.wikipedia...rix_(video_game)

The issue isn't so much who owns rights but whether they deem it worthwhile to put lawyers and accountants to work deciding what those rights are worth and how to license them.

Well, there's me being dumb. You're very much right, but I'm going to still look into it, even if it's a fruitless endeavor.

[KARTM]

beware of what you wish for …… its probably a good thing that nobody knows or care who own GPL , thats the reason why GPL is what it is now

[jgf]

It's possible the rights have been through a dozen owners over the years, most of whom deemed them virtually worthless ...unless someone wants to purchase them.  On at least two occasions GPL was licensed for release by discount distributors.

[mcmirande]

KARTM, on Apr 18 2020 - 04:50 AM, said:

beware of what you wish for …… its probably a good thing that nobody knows or care who own GPL , thats the reason why GPL is what it is now

I was just thinking the same. Maybe the code is where it should be...

[Lee200]

My two cents is that we leave well enough alone.  I'd love to see the original GPL source code, but what would we do with it?  It would still require someone with extensive knowledge and experience in programming to change it.  Perhaps there are a few around here who could do that, but I personally don't have that level of expertise.

GPL is fine where it is.  It's floated under the radar now for 20 years and no one has gotten sued yet.  So why poke the bear?  I can promise you that if any GPL modder were ever threatened with a lawsuit, then GPL would be dead on the spot for all of us.  

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Well said, Lee.

[Royale]

Manfred Cubenoggin, on Apr 18 2020 - 03:44 PM, said:

Well said, Lee.

In Lee I trust.

[M Needforspeed]

Lee200, on Apr 18 2020 - 02:35 PM, said:

It's floated under the radar now

those jet fighters pilots way to express things !

[ginetto]

I remember an interview with David Kaemmer during the development of iRacing where he stated that GPL code was lost long time before but they did not need it anyway because the Nascar Racing 2003 code for online racing (what they used as base for iRacing online racing)  was better for their needs.
IIRC he talked about GPL because the interviewer specifically asked him.

[Lee200]

I think GPL is in a very good place right now and we are very fortunate to have it.

1.  We've got great members who are passionate about historic racing from the '50s, '60s, and '70s and sim racing in general.  If the number of new members here at SRMZ is an indicator, GPL is enjoying a resurgence.

2  We've got a great group of modders who are equally passionate about making new cars, tracks, and utilities for the sim.

3.  We've got a great simulation that can be modified to represent about any type of racing we want.  While the graphics will never match newer sims, they still look pretty darn good.  The old girl has aged very well indeed.

The physics were light years ahead of anything else 20 years ago and have stood the test of time.  With all the upgrades, there is little missing that more modern sims have.  After years of study, we have a very thorough knowledge of how to modify the sim to accomplish what we want.

4.  We have a great host here at SRMZ and the Repository for communicating with each other and sharing our projects.

5.  And lastly, it's all free!  

[Claudio Pablo Navonne]

Lee wrote:"The old girl has aged very well indeed."
 FHjoven.jpg   3.94K   49 downloads
 FHOlder.jpg   3.09K   50 downloads

[prize]

Asking Dave Kaemmer for the GPL source code was a nonstarter.  To call Dave a perfectionist is an understatement; his uncompromising attitude gave us the masterpiece that is GPL, but it also means he's got no time for anything outdated or flawed.  Dave Kaemmer said that it's amazing how many bugs were in the original Grand Prix Legends source code (unearthed, I supposed, by the dozens of programmers who transformed GPL to NASCAR 3 and then iRacing over the years) and the the Grand Prix Legends demo code must have contained even MORE bugs.  In Dave's view, iRacing is the totally superior successor product, and when asked about open sourcing the GPL code he responds that he's got a business to run, that he wishes people would stop giving out mods for free, and that his desire would be to have everybody still using GPL try driving the iRacing 67 lotus at then Nurburgring and then consider whether iRacing is more enjoyable than GPL.  Freebies don't appeal to him, as he has payroll to meet every month.  However, he doesn't feel that strongly about whether GPL should live on or not, as the number of people using GPL is much smaller than those using iRacing, especially these days with NASCAR and Indy Car competing virtually on iRacing.

[mcmirande]

Lee200, on Apr 19 2020 - 01:33 PM, said:

I think GPL is in a very good place right now and we are very fortunate to have it.

1.  We've got great members who are passionate about historic racing from the '50s, '60s, and '70s and sim racing in general.  If the number of new members here at SRMZ is an indicator, GPL is enjoying a resurgence.

2  We've got a great group of modders who are equally passionate about making new cars, tracks, and utilities for the sim.

3.  We've got a great simulation that can be modified to represent about any type of racing we want.  While the graphics will never match newer sims, they still look pretty darn good.  The old girl has aged very well indeed.

The physics were light years ahead of anything else 20 years ago and have stood the test of time.  With all the upgrades, there is little missing that more modern sims have.  After years of study, we have a very thorough knowledge of how to modify the sim to accomplish what we want.

4.  We have a great host here at SRMZ and the Repository for communicating with each other and sharing our projects.

5.  And lastly, it's all free!  

Unbeatable

[JonnyA]

mcmirande, on Apr 19 2020 - 02:20 PM, said:

Unbeatable

[Treetop64]

Dunderbolt, on Apr 17 2020 - 04:19 PM, said:

From bits and pieces I've found here and there. The Source code for GPL is missing after Papyrus went bankrupt and they really don't know where it is anymore. Is that correct? Has there been discussions on the actions taken to look for it? Is this why basic patches and mods to the game have all these wild constraints?

As anyone who has modded for other games will mention, you don't need missing source code for mods to be constrained.  That's just the nature of 3rd party modding in general.

Anyway, as others have stated, messing around with the source codes isn't necessary, and we have a lot of fabulous mods for GPL now.

Edited by Treetop64, May 16 2020 - 03:59 PM.

[Treetop64]

..

Edited by Treetop64, May 16 2020 - 03:57 PM.