67 replies to this topic

[one2fwee]

Today I was wondering about the italian site that had historical aerial imagery that I had seen years ago but can't seem to find anymore. Does anyone know what it is?
It had imola from be 80s, syracuse you could see more of the orginal layout more clearly (but still not existing), misano before it was ruined etc

It got me thinking it would be useful to make lists of resources of such old historical aerial pictures and such for different countries and regions.

There is of course google earth, but it is limited to more recent years and it really depends on luck as to what they have.

I just found this for wales, it has a very small portion for the late 40s, but basically the whole country for 1969:
https://aerialphotos....z=16&b=0&a=1969

Not so useful for circuit makers, but if someone was doing historical rally stages it could be useful i guess. Though finding information on the specific stage routes and info for the history of rallying i imagine is no small feat!

There is this for usa: https://www.historicaerials.com/viewer
Unfortunately, it misses a lot. For example no pre-changes watkins glen. And everything is covered in their watermarks and at low scan res because they are trying to sell you their product :/

Thing is, history preservation shouldn't be about profit, there has to be governmental resources people can use to get this kind of imagery, surely? Mind you, judging the world we live in, probably not

I have a horrible feeling that italian site doesn't exist anymore or turned into a paid one too, but i'm not sure.

I know there is a site that claimed to have donington park in the 60s which might give a good reference for 30s donington. But again, it was paid. It is super irritating how google earth's 1945 images have donington park redacted.


On a side note, does anyone have any pictures of the original hairpin at Macau?

[Pavel]

It is for sure hard to find old aerial images. Even modern resources constantly updates their bases so it's sometimes hard to find what was 5 years ago with some places.

For some french circuits there is goos site Forgotten Circuits (on french) https://forgottencir....fr/FC_menu.htm It has good detailed historical aerial analysis for some tracks like Rouen, Reims, Sarthe.

[fajanko]

https://mapire.eu/en/

This one is 19th century but might be useful for old roads, buildings, etc

[Lalethor]

The only italian site of circuit that I know is DeCarli

https://www.gdecarli.it/index.htm

Was maybe any italian forum?

[Michkov]

For the US, go here https://earthexplorer.usgs.gov/. It takes some getting used to the interface, but you have access to aerial surveys back to at least the 50s in the highest resolution everywhere. You can go even earlier for major population centers.

Here for example is what is now LAX back in 1940 when all there was was Mines field and a racetrack next to it, taken from the above page.
 sat.png   731.48K   30 downloads

For France I got this https://remonterletemps.ign.fr/, similar idea as the USGS website but much more intuitive interface.

Those two were the most useful for me so far, but I got all these stashed away on the hope I might need them sometime
EarthExplorer
The National Map - Advanced Viewer
FrameFinder
Home | Mapire - The Historical Map Portal
Visor SigPac V 3.5
Digitaler Atlas Steiermark
III. Military survey of the Habsburg Empire.
Historical Photo-Maps
Mapová sbírka Geografického ústavu PřF MU
Remonter le temps
ÚAZK - přehledka
Eire
Landkartenarchiv - Historische Landkarten,
Stadtpläne und Atlanten online - 21.519 Straßenkarten
Stadtpläne, topographische Landkarten
Autoatlanten, Weltatlanten und Postleitzahlenkarten online
Topographische Übersichtskarte von Mittel-Europa 1:200.000 (1899-1943) - Landkartenarchiv.de
Reymann´s topographische Special-Karte von Central Europa 1:200.000 (1806 - 1908)
https://scihub.coper....eu/dhus/#/home
Mapa Interactivo de Buenos Aires v4.1
Ordnance Survey Ireland (OSi)
19th Century Historical Maps - UCD Digital Library
QImagery - Queensland Government

Nothing Italian in there, mostly US, UK, parts of Australia, France, bit of Germany in early 29th century, the full KuK military Atlas which is only useful for up to 1920 imo, the Buenos Aires one was quite a help to get the 1000k circuit right, Copernicus is mostly satellite data, but has a good coverage.
It would be awesome if someone could fill in the gaps I have in my collection.

[ROOKIE4EVER]

- E-tracks

https://web.archive....circuit_az.html

- RACING CIRCUITS. NET

https://www.the-fastl...cuits/index.htm

- THE GOLDEN ERA

https://www.kolumbus.....snellman/t.htm

- SILHOUET.COM :

https://www.silhouet....cks/tracks.html

- A presentation page dedicated to these five sites (including GDECARLI.IT) :

https://www.grandpri...its-3009-121008

[one2fwee]

Pavel, on Dec 17 2019 - 11:58 PM, said:

It is for sure hard to find old aerial images. Even modern resources constantly updates their bases so it's sometimes hard to find what was 5 years ago with some places.

For some french circuits there is goos site Forgotten Circuits (on french) https://forgottencir....fr/FC_menu.htm It has good detailed historical aerial analysis for some tracks like Rouen, Reims, Sarthe.

Wow Pavel, the quality of those aerials is amazing! Truly! That is the kind of data that there surely is for most circuits, just that it is so hidden away and hoarded by corporations and governments.
But just seeing Rouen and Le Mans, wow it shows a lot! Anyone can see just how much the roads have been widened at Rouen now, which shows how from SMS and the Virtualm modding team got with their versions in comparison to gpl.
It also shows how Sciere and Virage du Paradis were, different to how i had guessed before!

Thanks for all of the help from everyone. I guess i have to register on that american site in order to properly view anything, Michikov? I could only view tiny, unhelpful previews otherwise.

If i remember the sites i had seen for the uk and italy i will link them. But i think you could only really view that they had photos available to purchase (or perhaps extremely low quality previews), so i'm not sure if they will be so helpful.

But yes, resources like this should be widely available and free in my eyes - how else does anyone preserve history, it will just be lost otherwise.
Even on the sites linked, it is very difficult to find the historical imagery sections, in fact on a lot of them, i simply couldn't. This is what comes with not being a surveyor or architect

Thanks!

[ginetto]

one2fwee, on Dec 17 2019 - 05:01 PM, said:

Today I was wondering about the italian site that had historical aerial imagery that I had seen years ago but can't seem to find anymore. Does anyone know what it is?
It had imola from be 80s, syracuse you could see more of the orginal layout more clearly (but still not existing), misano before it was ruined etc

Check this one
https://www.pcn.minambiente.it/viewer/

Attached Files

•  imola 1988.jpg   178.74K   45 downloads

[one2fwee]

Thanks Ginetto, that's the site

I also found the other one that has earlier aerials, but it is a pay site so you can only view extremely small previews

For example, this seems to show that Rivazza was originally 1 long corner, instead of 2. I wonder if the automobilista people took this research as they have it like that in their sim too. It's funny because I have never seen any of the sites online talk about Rivazza changing or show it as a big curve like this. (The only changes i've heard there are obviously after 94).
Here is an aerial there from 1954, but it's so small you can hardly see:
https://www.igmi.org...a-1484604646.01

To search the site yourself, go here:
https://www.igmi.org...dotti#b_start=0

[Michkov]

I had a browse on the USGS website, turned out one of the declassified Keyhole images was digitized  Resulting in the attached picture of 1975s Imola. I cut it out since 1GB is way above the attachment limits but the resolution is about what you the original had.
 Screenshot 2019-12-21 22.27.02.png   398.59K   50 downloads

[one2fwee]

Wow i thought USGS was only for the US.
Is that from this image, but really zoomed in: https://ims.cr.usgs....10-00000031.jpg
In the declassified 2002, section?

Anyway, that's interesting, it shows it the same, unless it's just a line of trees, hard to fully see.
I am guessing that they changed that corner when they first started to make changes to the circuit.

I am still amazed at the quality of those french aerials, that's really cool.

Thanks

[Michkov]

one2fwee, on Dec 21 2019 - 04:36 PM, said:

Wow i thought USGS was only for the US.
Is that from this image, but really zoomed in: https://ims.cr.usgs....10-00000031.jpg
In the declassified 2002, section?

Mostly yes, let's put it this way, it's reliable for the US. But if your country is launching spysatsthe size of Hubble since the early 60s there are bound to be some images from all over the planet. Problem with the declassified images is that they are mostly not available online. The Northeastern Italy shot was the first I could just download, mind you the full res image is 2GB, so handling it is quite tricky. Even finding Imola was a task in itself, because once zoomed in you are looking at this

 Screenshot 2019-12-22 20.25.12.png   1.1MB   30 downloads

I had to follow the river back from it's delta to find the city. Found an odd quadruple confluence in the process too.


Not sure if your file is the same as mine, the framing fits though. Mine was named DZB1210-500143L010001.

Edited by Michkov, Dec 22 2019 - 05:41 PM.

[ginetto]

Imola in '56 had a double turn at Rivazza; it was just different, you're right

Attached Files

•  1956.jpg   102.45K   39 downloads

[ed76]

in france you have : IGN
https://remonterlete...qvgDP4hj9oq_0xk

Attached Files

•  56393216_982435798615534_5097345956593008640_n.jpg   177.55K   28 downloads

Edited by ed76, Dec 24 2019 - 12:25 PM.

[one2fwee]

The quality of the aerials on that french site are staggering. Really!

You can see them start to clear the trees away for te new motorway in 68, and in 71 you can see them change paradis to accommodateit!
The quality of the close ones (1962, 1966 for example) is so good that you could get pretty good road widths and detailed curvature from it.
Once you get to the colour images, the quality seems to take a massive nose dive, I wonder why.

It just makes me more frustrated that the data like this that obviously exists for most of the world is being hoarded away by companies - as evidenced by that italian site that wants €100 an image!



Talking of imola, does it look like to anyone that rivazza was still unchanged in the 78 images?
Here is 56 like Ginetto showed:
https://www.igmi.org...a-1484604702.52

And here 78:
https://www.igmi.org...ma-1484604595.2
https://www.igmi.org...a-1484607332.11

And here 81, where you can kind of see more that it looks like it has changed by then:
https://www.igmi.org...a-1484607533.01


Also, to me, it looks like the chicane at aqua minerale has been added by 78 but i don't think it was :s Just the resolution playing tricks!

Edited by one2fwee, Dec 24 2019 - 03:14 PM.

[Michkov]

Aqua Minerale chicane is build some time between 79 and 80. That might be an artifact like you suspect. Compare these two videos

1979
https://www.youtube....h?v=e_KIeL55FhE

1980
https://www.youtube....h?v=UVFf3VYbHHY

one2fwee, on Dec 24 2019 - 02:50 PM, said:

The quality of the aerials on that french site are staggering. Really!

Aeroplane against satelite, the height shows doesn't it.

Here is a short docu about the whole reason behind those aerial surveys
https://www.youtube....h?v=QZZjFdudLjM

[Pavel]

one2fwee, on Dec 24 2019 - 02:50 PM, said:

...
Talking of imola, does it look like to anyone that rivazza was still unchanged in the 78 images?
Here is 56 like Ginetto showed:
https://www.igmi.org...a-1484604702.52

And here 78:
https://www.igmi.org...ma-1484604595.2
https://www.igmi.org...a-1484607332.11

And here 81, where you can kind of see more that it looks like it has changed by then:
https://www.igmi.org...a-1484607533.01


Also, to me, it looks like the chicane at aqua minerale has been added by 78 but i don't think it was :s Just the resolution playing tricks!

Yes, I think in1978 Rivazz was still unchanged. But then they started to make modification to the circuit. Trying to make runoff areas they 'moved' some corners. From 1981 picture you can see new Rivazza turns (two 90 deg turns) under construction and old road run along the edge of run off area.

This old home video was shot around old Rivazza. You can see downhill approach to it and fast exit toward the start-finish area.

[one2fwee]

Michkov, on Dec 24 2019 - 03:41 PM, said:

Here is a short docu about the whole reason behind those aerial surveys
https://www.youtube....h?v=QZZjFdudLjM

Oh wow, that's really cool, thanks!

Pavel, on Dec 25 2019 - 02:37 AM, said:

Yes, I think in1978 Rivazz was still unchanged. But then they started to make modification to the circuit. Trying to make runoff areas they 'moved' some corners. From 1981 picture you can see new Rivazza turns (two 90 deg turns) under construction and old road run along the edge of run off area.

This old home video was shot around old Rivazza. You can see downhill approach to it and fast exit toward the start-finish area.

Nice footage! The view of the start finish area into tamburello looks really cool!
Is the footage at 1:51 taken from ontop of the bridge before the right hander before rivazza? It looks like it must be, but then somehow it seems too low to be. It also looks like the bridge is further back from the corner than it is today, but it could just be cos the FOV of that camera is so low.

[M Needforspeed]

  some maps of french racing tracks collected here

https://srmz.racesimcentral.net/inde...44

[one2fwee]

So i finally bothered to make an account on that US site.

Nowhere near as nice as the french one but better than nought

Here is Watkins Glen from 1957:
https://i.imgur.com/LuAfde9.png

There are 2 from 1960 but worse quality. I couldn't find any more but I could have just missed them because I may have been omitting certain datasets.

Edited by one2fwee, Jan 08 2020 - 03:51 PM.