203 replies to this topic

[Bruce]

Just one more query on the subject of the brakes....

If the Connaught and the Vanwall are fitted with four-wheel disc brakes, why do they suffer the same degree of fade as the drum-braked cars?

[gliebzeit]

As Lee earlier explained over in the main release topic:

"Yes, the brake fade due to brake temperature is the same for all cars.  We did a lot of research on this subject and basically concluded that there was no big difference between drum and disk brake equipped cars for the amount of braking effectiveness at the same brake temperature.

Now each car does have different cooling factors.  The two disk brake equipped cars (Vanwall and Connaught) cool more quickly than the other cars so normally their braking will be better because their brake temps will be lower."

[Tato]

Bruce, on May 11 2017 - 12:36 AM, said:

In my humble opinion, you've gone a bit excessive with this in that in real-life very few drivers would have ever completed a "brake-intensive" race such as the Nurburgring if their brakes faded as badly as that depicted in the simulation.

Totally agree.
I need to add that I'm always really gentle with brakes, and never an hard-braker. Always use engine-brake to slow the car. Many times I leave the throttle early before the braking point. Used to do so in real life and even more in racing sims. Now even more with 55 mod.

So I find myself a bit or quite disappointed (and yes, no one in the world will care about this, so non need to spot) spending 95% of the racing time looking at the yellow led praying and crossing fingers hoping it doesn't turn red immediatly after I simply touch the brake, with no opportunity at all to stop the car, early ending the race against something hard. For example, I'm unable to finish an intermediate level race at Aintree with Vanwall. As Bruce wrote, AI doesn't seems really bothered with or affected by a so hard brake-fade.

I'm sure that the mod team has all the right technical informations about brakes and me not, this is out of discussion. I know that drum-brakes are quite less effective than disks. I'm aware that in those years brakes fade was an issue drivers had to face with more than today. But never read or listen that they last almost and barely for a lap or two and never recover from heating, even at low brake-demanding tracks with long straights.

I know, it's a silly and probably unachievable situation, but I'm really interested in the opinion of one or more driver that race in historical events into those old machinery - taking in account that are more efficient today, of course - about the brakes behaviour in the 55 mod, since is impossible now to enlist a real driver of those years.

In the end I want to remark, in order to avoid useless misunderstandings, that I'm not the typical no-one incompetent and arrogant :expletive: that tell to experts and masters how to do things he doesn't has a clue, I'm only the typical no-one incompetent here just to say his humble word and add his two cents to discussion, because I think that everyone's opinion could add something to the matter.

[Bruce]

gliebzeit, on May 13 2017 - 10:30 PM, said:

"...........basically concluded that there was no big difference between drum and disk brake equipped cars for the amount of braking effectiveness at the same brake temperature."

Sorry guys, but you've totally lost me on that one.
"No big difference"?!!
Even solid discs could withstand (and still can today) far greater temps than drums even if the material used in the pads and the shoes was of the same type and because the disc expanded towards the pads, as opposed to a drum expanding away from a shoe, the braking efficiency was significantly higher.

gliebzeit, on May 13 2017 - 10:30 PM, said:

"......The two disk brake equipped cars (Vanwall and Connaught) cool more quickly than the other cars so normally their braking will be better because their brake temps will be lower."

Their braking will be better because the pads continue to make contact with the discs even when both are at high temps.

I realise that I'm flogging a dead horse but I will continue to maintain that the fade effect is excessive and now, learning about the disc-equipped cars, their fade should be zero....i.e., at the same level as any of the original 1960s car sets.

Edited by Bruce, May 14 2017 - 12:25 AM.

[gliebzeit]

We've done the best with the data and physics settings to get the relative performance between cars as close as possible.

Edited by gliebzeit, May 14 2017 - 06:52 AM.

[leon_90]

Bruce, on May 14 2017 - 12:14 AM, said:

learning about the disc-equipped cars, their fade should be zero....i.e., at the same level as any of the original 1960s car sets.

I am a kiddo, therefore ignorant as I never even saw one of these cars in action (sigh). BUT, I try to compensate by reading a lot, which is something I suggest warmly to anyone to do in life. It helps having a broader point of view than one self experience, which means nothing really.

You say that the carsets from the 60es have zero brake fade, and rightly so. Well you know what? The brake fade patch would instead do great also with for other mods we have, going as far as CanAm '71. I hope it'll get adapted for them, or at least for the new mods which will come out after '55.
Fading wasn't really completely sorted out until the eighties, and if you read Donohue, Amon or Stewart's autobiographies you would read that they costantly complain about brake fading, whatever car they were driving on. Donohue does so about, for example, the GT40 MKII and IV, which had updated brakes to reduce fading (!!), and the Ferrari 250 LM. Two completely different cars, yet both suffered fading. Amon and Stewart do so regarding F1 cars.
I just finished reading a book about the Ferrari 512s/m and you know what is one of the things Adamowicz, Posey and Bell complain about? Brake fading! Which was somewhat corrected in the M specification model, but not entirely. (recommended read, they got a lot of interesting books in this series)
https://www.amazon.c... owner workshop

Ok, you still don't trust me. Right, then, photographic evidence. Monaco. F1. Teams there used to run both big radiators mouth intakes and big brakes' air scoops. Because brakes could not breathe properly and drivers would have experienced fading otherwise. We are talking about late sixties here. Brake fading was still a thing at Monaco in the late sixties.
If discs were so efficient by then why worry so much about feeding them air?
Why do you think Stuttgart (Porsche), Modena (Ferrari) and Velizy (Matra) studied the best and more efficient way to feed big volumes of air into their prototypes still into the seventies? They all had fading problems.

So, in conclusion, my advice would be to not spend time complaining. You might think that I am say so in an effort to criticize you. I am not, mine is a suggestion. You can spend time complaining, but is it worth it? The patch is as correct as it can be, and will stay so. Therefore you are spending time of your life which, instead, won't come back. Once spent is lost. Also, you are causing Lee, Royale, and all who worked hard on the mod to feel bad about it. Not because they did anything wrong, but because that is the power of negative critics. There can be a hundred compliments, but if you receive just one negative comment your mind gets stuck on it, ignoring all the positives. This is detrimentral for everyone. Do not drive the '55, if they do not suit you. Thank God we have so much of a choice with GPL nowadays.

It's right to present doubts and questions about physics, graphics and audio, but once proven wrong one must take a step back. Doing so, presents the opportunity to learn something new, whether is a notion or a skill. Not doing so, prevents knowledge and limits your growth, because you are stuck on your personal idea.

Edited by leon_90, May 14 2017 - 06:20 AM.

[Bruce]

gliebzeit, on May 14 2017 - 05:38 AM, said:

We've done the best with the data and physics settings to get the relative performance between cars as close possible.

Greg, that "balance" should be accounted for by the Connaught and Vanwall having less horsepower yet having that handicap offset by the significantly better braking efficiency.

[Bruce]

leon_90, on May 14 2017 - 06:18 AM, said:

............... you are causing Lee, Royale, and all who worked hard on the mod to feel bad about it. Not because they did anything wrong, but because that is the power of negative critics. There can be a hundred compliments, but if you receive just one negative comment your mind gets stuck on it, ignoring all the positives....

Oh, I get it!
It's okay to praise but that is the only type of critique which is permissible.
Okey-dokey......now I understand.

(I surrender.)

[leon_90]

Bruce, on May 14 2017 - 06:34 AM, said:

Oh, I get it!
It's okay to praise but that is the only type of critique which is permissible.
Okey-dokey......now I understand.

(I surrender.)

Since you got my comment out of context and also misinterpreted, at this point I'll reply in a less civilized manner, questioning your ability of basic comprehension.

Negative critics are welcome, when constructive. Yours is NOT, because it has been widely explained to you that you are wrong. You are wrong, understand?
There's nothing to fix, nothing to update, because nothing needs to. You are wasting everybody's time by keeping complaining about something that IN YOUR MIND should be different, based on a PERSONAL AND LIMITED experience. You haven't produced evidence nor data. Just your experience in a generic car, so much time ago that even your memories are questionable due to how much time has passed.

You are boring, I won't spend any more time arguing with you.

[davef]

While I'm not a "senior" member of the GPLR Mod Team I am old enough to remember watching "Grand Prix" & "Le Mans" on US TV and pretending to be a racecar driver using the couch cushions as the cockpit of the car.

Now that my GPL PC is broken and I'm currently MIA I have been reunited with part of my extensive LP Vinyl collection which I have now disappeared into.

Attached Files

•  1.JPG   144.57K   37 downloads

[gliebzeit]

Good to 'see' you, Dave!  A very nice old record collection.  

I have a few (standing upright) in a closet ... with no player to listen to them.  

[davef]

gliebzeit, on May 14 2017 - 10:05 AM, said:

Good to 'see' you, Dave!  A very nice old record collection.  

I have a few (standing upright) in a closet ... with no player to listen to them.  

Hey Greg!!!

Hope to someday rejoin the team!

Hello to Lee and Bob and the rest of the gang too.

[ducwolf]

As a mod team member I was not responible for the processing of the fading patch, but very interested because of my rl experiences
with Duplex drum brakes and high tec disc brakes from the mid seventies until today. Uncounted times I prepaired drums and disc for road and track.
My current bike runs with one kilo per hp and I still drive it with passion and very sportive ambition even if I am one of those "old man" in the Mod team.
When I tested the fading patch during the processing and beta stages, I also thought it was too strong.
The physic team collected a lot of data with temp curves and describtions of period drivers like Taruffi in his book about driving techiques.
I had enough to do with my part of the mod, but always watched how the fading patch was optimized by Lee and Richard until the final version.
They adjusted more than ten versions to find the released version.

All I can say is this:
1955 may be the best season to show that historic F1 cars had a problem that we are not familiar with as user of the original GPL or the whole mods.
The fact that abused brakes can and will have fading ! And under hard race conditions it is also a fact for disc brakes of the first generation.
I know how disc brakes worked on bikes in the seventies and I know how they work today ( Currently driving Brembo 330 rotors with Brembo monoblocks )
The calculated brake surface / wheight ratio of bikes and cars are compareable )
( Even My 2003 Ford Mondeo Sport had also fading when I had to brake hard from 200 km/h, with modern discs !!! )

If there are GPL users who find the fading effect is moddeled too strong, I can only recommend to drive the virtual cars and try to manage
the fading as good as possible. It is a very important feature to simulate the 55 F1 cars. Without the patch as it is the 55 Mod would never be
a ( half way ) realistic recreation of the season.
Most interesting for me was to run the first races on IGOR after the mod release and winning the races easy. While I had green light all the race
my opponents chatted about red light. I won with aprox lap gap !?!  - I had the time to learn how to use those brakes ....

During the processing I also complained about the strengh of the patch. There where many good argument from both sides.
As we found out very late the Mercedes may have had less fading, but what does it count ?

For Your enjoyment and If You will handle the mod as it is, You may want to know what one of the real legends, who is still alive has answered me
when I got in touch with him via e-mail, told him what we are aiming for and what he can tell us about the brakes of the W196.

Re: Hans Herrmann via mail 23.12.2015
--------------------------------------
Dear Mr. Buthe,

many thanks for Your message.
I can not give You exact informations about the brakes. Therefor You may want to ask a technician.
I can say that the drum brakes where very susceptible. We had to portion the brakes exactly, depending on the race track.
A very calculated and tactical braking was needed.

Merry Chrismas and a happy new year,

Hans Herrmann

---------------------------------------
You may think or feel or know better about brake fading, but please respect the work of our physic team to create a feature
for GPL that works over all very credible.
The fading patch should force the GPL user to manage the fact of fading. For me a most worthful aspect for the 55mod.

Last but not least: Give Yourself some time to learn to handle the patch.
I am happy with the patch since I can run rl laptimes in the 55mod without getting red light as long as I take care with the brakes.

[gliebzeit]

Well said, Wolfgang.  

[Claudio Pablo Navonne]

gliebzeit, on May 14 2017 - 12:07 PM, said:

Well said, Wolfgang.  

+1